Tony Jones Introduces Homosexual Emergent Church Site
I was perusing Beliefnet yesterday, to see how prominent Scot McKnight’s “Jesus Creed” blog was being featured. (He moved his site to be hosted there, now.)
As I was looking, I wasn’t too surprised to find that Tony Jones hosts his own blog there. I took a quick look, and what did I find?
Headline: “Announcing Queermergent“
Adele Sakler, whom I’ve known for a few years, has started yet another “hyphenated” group within the emergent network-of-networks. She’s calling it “Queermergent,” and, as you might guess, it’s focused on GLBTQ issues.
For those that didn’t see a few weeks ago, I posted that Tony Jones has openly stated he now believes homosexuality and Christianity are compatible: “I now believe that GLBTQ [gay/lesbian/bisexual/transsexual/queer] can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (at least as much as any of us can!) and that their monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and state.”
I visited the Queermergent site, which introduces itself with the following:
My name is Adele and i blog at Existential Punk. i have been a part of the Emergent conversation both in the UK and the USA for the past 6 years. After years of white-knuckling and repressing my sexuality through a Religious Right conservatism, charismatic, fundamentalist Christianity that lived by literal interpretations of the Bible in dogmatic ways, Reparative Therapy and ex-gay ministries, where the mantra became, “Pray Away the Gay”, and years of depression and suicidal tendencies, i FINALLY came to terms with my sexuality and G-D. Through a very long journey with many peaks and valleys, i decided, through much counsel and prayer that reconciling my same-sex attractions and my Christian faith was a reality where i could exist.
Tony Jones sure seems to be keeping himself in good company these days.
He would also be thrilled to hear Obama’s request for a gay bishop to pray at his inauguration.
My name is Aaron Rathburn. I am a senior in philosophy at Calvin College, and formerly studied at Trinity School of Theology (Wales, UK). I am a husband, and father of two. This site is a collection of musings on theology, culture, and more. 
I just threw up in my mouth. Unbelievable stuff.
That’s so sad to hear Erik threw up in his mouth. Boy, that is a loving response now isn’t it. i am so sorry we sicken you to the point of throwing up in your mouth.
Godspeed.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Being a homosexual and a Christian is a biblical oxymoron. It amazes and shocks me how folks today can call themselves “Christians” and hang onto what the Bible calls sin.
Erik,
I think you are missing the point and are not fully applying God’s word. It reminds me of the story in Matthew 22:23-33 where the Sadducees were using a misguided idea of marriage to dispute the doctrine of the Resurrection. Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.”
While I agree that God’s Spirit will not condone any sex outside of Biblical marriage (including homosexual encounters) you are confused in thinking that someone can BE or NOT BE a homosexual. God doesn’t create people as homosexuals. He gives us a sexual nature that longs for fulfillment and satan twists that so that we have desires (same-sex or otherwise) that do not align with God’s will. Someone with same-sex desires may or may not actively sin in that arena. I knew a gay man who struggled with his sexual identity in the church and was honestly pursuing God. He wavered between the false teachers who condoned homosexuality and those who lovingly spoke the truth to him about his sin and his need for healing. We need to love and respect people of all sexual orientations yet not shrink back from preaching the truth about their need for repentance, healing and deliverance.
My heart goes out to Adele who could not find the power to repent of behavior that the Bible describes as sin. This can only be accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit. It can best be fostered in an environment of loving encouragement from humble Christian brothers and sisters who refuse to judge and yet will not abandon the timeless truths of scripture to appease outside criticism or to wrongly assuage the guilt of those caught in the trap of homosexuality. I also hope that you can have compassion on those who struggle with same sex attraction and learn to pray for them effectively. I suggest that you look up the work of a very dear formerly gay man named Andy Comiskey who has a ministry called Desert Stream. God Bless.
Gary
or that they can stop being a homosexual if they want to come to God. We are all sinners and we all sin in sexual brokenness, either in thought or in action.
Well, as Martin Luther put it— some sin is not simply evil, it is filthy. And filthiness “must be described in language coarse enough and repulsive enough to nauseate the reader.”
Adele, you said:
“i decided, through much counsel and prayer that reconciling my same-sex attractions and my Christian faith was a reality where i could exist.”
All I can say is that whoever counseled you has given you very damaging advice. I had someone close to me given bad counsel from his church, and it can be devastating.
I don’t expect to change your mind whatsoever, you have heard this before. Scripture is abundantly clear on this subject. But just bear this in mind— you are not only damaging your own life with this, but you are damaging the corporate church and the witness of Christ.
Aaron,
As the Apostle Paul wrote, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” and “The wages of sin is death”. I there is one passage in the New Testament that talks about homosexuality being unnatural and therefore different from heterosexual sin in degree but I think the whole rest of the Bible condems all sin. We Christians are generally very hard on homosexual sin but very soft on other sins which can seem more “christian”. Look at the list in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
That said, the reason that I focus on your comments more than Adele’s is that I want the mainstream church to reach out to all sinners equally. Maybe you do and I would bless you for that. We need to have our attitudes right before we can lean on those who are lobbying for homosexuality in the church to get their position in order. I feel that if we have Jesus’ attitude toward homosexual sinners, we will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to bring real change into their lives.
Gary
Hi Gary,
Actually, I agree completely. And as a matter of fact, I actually did make this point in this very conversation. People living in homosexuality are “just like everybody else”—struggling with sin. And I completely agree that Christians have gone over the deep end on this one sin, and not addressing all sins similarly. What about adulterers? What about drunkards that abuse their families? What about the sins of consumerism and greed that drive our capitalism? People living in homosexuality are getting more than their share from the church.
That said, just because they’re like everyone else and struggling with sin, doesn’t give them special treatment, either. Sin is still sin. We can point fingers at who’s committing the bigger, badder sin, but at the end of the day, sin is sin, and if you are guilty of one, you’re as good as guilty of all (James 2:10).
i think you all believe you have a monopoly on how the Bible is interpreted. i think you are hurtful and damaging people and if i did not already know Christ would want nothing to do with Christianity with the likes of mean-spirited people like yourselves. How are you so certain you have all that G-D intends nailed down so simply? Maybe you are wrong? You are very hurtful and do not even know me and probably do not know many, if any at all, gay folks. We are human beings with emotions and feelings like YOU! Where is the love of Christ? i do not see it from the likes of people like you. We disagree on Biblical interpretation and i think there is scholarship on both sides of the debate. What makes your interpretation the correct one over and above others? Are you G-D? i think not! Why don’t you try getting to know some gay people for who we are?
Adele,
I would like to address your concerns. For starters, let me share a little of my background. I have few gay friends but my son is gay. He isn’t following God. I don’t tell him that he should try to stop being gay and I commend him for wanting to have a stable relationship and not be promiscuous. He has a lot of good values but when he was a teenager he decided that he didn’t want God’s will for his life. I regret that I did not do a better job of helping him understand that God would be the best way for him to deal with his same-sex attraction and to really reach his true heart’s desires.
I don’t think that everything in the Bible is open for anybody’s interpretation. Some things are figurative and vague and some things are clear. I don’t think I have the right to sleep with another woman or take something that doesn’t belong to me because the Bible is very clear about those things. A straightforward reading of the Bible will paint a picture that marriage is for a man and a woman, that homosexuality is a sin and that all sex outside of marriage violates God’s will. That is a pretty difficult pill to swallow if you feel no attraction or even repulsion for the opposite sex. But God’s word confronts us all the time about the desires of our flesh. My heart goes out to you because I can imagine that you have been mistreated by many heterosexual Christians who judged you and because you might have felt that denying your same sex attractions was being untrue to yourself and denying the way that God made you. Yet by deciding that your inner feelings were the guide to ultimate truth, you set yourself up as judge of the Bible rather than letting it judge you. If you don’t feel that you have done this, then I’d like you to answer a question. If you became convinced that the original language of the Bible really did outlaw homosexuality and identify homosexual relations as sinful, would you be willing to submit to that? If so, then I would ask you to seek out those who will love you for who you are in God’s eyes and honestly lift you up in prayer to see God’s will be done in your life. Just pray the prayer that says, “God, if I’m wrong about this and you want to deliver me from homosexuality (lesbianism) and give me normal feelings and seek out normal relationships, then I repent of my same-sex relationships right now and I ask you to show me, lead me and change me. I want Your will for my life, not my own. And please help me forgive those who have judged me and hurt me. Teach them to understand people like me and not drive us away.”
I’ll pray for you today.
Gary
BTW, you are all more interested in being ‘Biblically correct’ over and above love and relationship with people. All you care about is spewing out ‘YOUR’ interpretations of Scripture over and above how you treat your fellow human beings, which lacks in love, respect and kindness. We obviously do not see eye to eye and i will not continue to go around in circular arguments with you people. You think i am going to hell and i disagree. God Bless you all and may you be enriched everyday by Christ’s grace and love.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Adele, here is a three-part response.
Part 1 = Response to General Points
Part 2 = Interpretations of the Bible
Part 3 = Christ-like Love in Disputes
***
PART 1
Adele, nobody thinks you’re going to hell whatsoever. I just understand scripture to teach that homosexuality is a sin.
I know many, many gay people. I know two Christians who have struggled with homosexuality in the past and have repented of it and changed their lifestyles.
Trust me, I know extremely well that gay people are human beings with emotions and feelings, just like anybody else. As a matter of fact, I would also take this even further than you would— I would argue that they are EXACTLY like everybody else, and simply live in a fallen world and struggle with sin. They are not “different” than other people, where they can live in their sin and others can’t.
You ask, where is the love of Christ? If I had no love for you as my sister, I would not take the time to have this conversation with you. What I am doing now is a “1 Corinthians 5″ style of “tough love.” Tough love sounds tough, but it’s called “love” for a reason.
PART 2
Adele: “What makes your interpretation the correct one over and above others?”
Interpreting the Bible involves knowledge of linguistics, ancient near eastern culture, textual interpretation (such as judges interpreting the Constitution), history, literature, and much more.
Interpreting the Bible is not a flimsy art, it is a science. When the Protestant Reformers were translating the Bible into the common language, they knew better than to just pass out Bibles everywhere. They knew that without a proper education in these ancient texts and cultures, people would come away with all kinds of different interpretations.
So instead, they made what we know of today as “study Bibles.” The teachers helped guide the people of God in how to correctly understand and apply scripture.
Yes, there are other interpretations of the passages that call homosexuality a sin. Yes, you are correct that there is scholarship on both sides. But like any other science, not all interpretations of the Bible are created equal— and some interpretations are more “scientifically” correct with the data than others.
PART 3
Adele: “All you care about is spewing out ‘YOUR’ interpretations of Scripture over and above how you treat your fellow human beings, which lacks in love, respect and kindness.”
Look at the example of Christ. He called his adversaries a generation of vipers, blind, hypocrites, and children of satan. Paul calls people dogs, deceivers, and adulterers of word. In Galatians, Paul wishes that false teachers just would go and cut their balls off.
Does that sound like “treating fellow human beings in love, respect, and kindness”?
We live in a very politically correct climate of postmodern pluralism and globalization. You’re not allowed to say or do anything to anyone that might cause offense. But Jesus did not walk this line— he was so offensive to the establishment that they conspired against him and murdered him.
Here is another thing Luther said:
“Nowadays, of course, our ears are made so sensitive by the mad multitude of flatterers that as soon as we find that we are not praised in all things, we cry out that people are viscious.”
Jesus said that we are to treat the fellow sheep as sheep— tender and loving. But he said that there are also wolves that prey on the sheep, and lead them astray. In the case of the wolves, Jesus does not say to treat them like sheep.
Look at the example of Christ.
In conclusion…
Interpreting the Bible involves hard fact, not subjective interpretation. The Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin. You are not going to hell if you have Christ, you are simply living in sin. Gay people are no different than anybody else— they have feelings, emotions, and struggle with sin they need to repent of— homosexuality. I am taking the time to write this out of love. But it is not a politically correct 21st-century version of love, but rather I am following the example of Christ.
Aaron,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. We are just gonna have to agree to disagree and love one another in Christ. Otherwise we will just continue in a circular debate. i appreciate your kindness as i recognize you are trying to show tough love, which i admit, we all show people at times. It’s just i do not believe i am sinning by being queer. We just view things differently and i am ok with that. i come from a christian background of certainty in all things and i am not there any longer and love that. i enjoy the mystery and the questions more than having all the answers figured out. i came here to share a little about how some people on your side of the debate make me and other queers feel. i think both sides often forget that we are flesh and blood human beings with emotions and feelings.
May G-D continue to bless you!
Warm Regards,
Adele
Aaron,
Also wanted to say that i am sure we have things we can find common ground on to converse about. i have several friends who think along the lines as you and we find other things we can talk about. In fact, i have a faithful reader at my EP blog who disagrees with me but he comments on other posts. He loves me in Christ even though we disagree because we are Christians and love one another through our common bond of Christ. He is very respectful like you.
BTW, my comments were more in reference to commenter above, Erik, and people like him, which i find to be not helpful, but rather hurtful, and not to you.
Warm Regards,
Adele
Adele: I’ll make my point yet again: you cannot be a Christian and be a homosexual at the same time. Call yourself homosexual but don’t claim Christianity cause they are two totally different things. You must reading a different Bible than us Christians to come up with your theology.
Erik, your opinion is yours so keep it to yourself. You cannot judge my relationship with G-D. It is not an oxymoron to be a queer Christian. i am so sick of people like you – Arrogant, all-knowing. My faith is between me and G-d and i don’t care what you think. i am secure in my faith in G-D and i KNOW that i am a Christian. Think whatever you like. So, i guess you are perfect and have no sins in your life at all. Must be nice!
Adele
Adele,
Please, for the sake of us Christians who take the Bible as the inspired Word of God, quit ignoring the passages that denounce the very sin you and your partner are in right now. It’s folks like yourself who treat the Bible like a salad bar, picking and choosing the verses YOU like, that causes the world to be confused as to what really is a Christian. Ignoring your sin will only lead you to an eternity separate from God since He despises homosexuality.
Erik,
You are not helping this discussion by contributing in any meaningful way. Most people have a problem with interpreting the Bible correctly – but unfortunately you seem to be applying the Bible incorrectly. You have set up an unbiblical standard for being a Christian – perfection in one area – which is salvation by works.
You say that homosexuality is sin, which it is. So is adultery – no more, no less. It is a sexual sin. Are you also saying that one cannot be an adulterer and also be a Christian? We can say that if one is a Christian one shouldn’t be an adulterer, but we cannot say that one who commits adultery is not a Christian.
Then Jesus says that lust is equivalent to adultery. So is it possible for a Christian to lust? Have you never, ever lusted once as a Christian? In your theologically constructed world, the two cannot co-exist. Perhaps you should consider 1 Corinthians 3.
What about “white lie” – or being angry without a cause? You simply cannot classify sins this way. God also despises anything in our lives that has priority over him – does that mean you are lost? And if you are lost on that basis – then all are – and Christ’s work accomplished nothing.
I will get on to answer Brian’s post in a moment.
Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
Erik,
It’s people like you who cherry pick as well. There IS plenty of scholarship out there on my side of the debate. Take your arrogance and certainty back to your own church and don’t dictate to me how to live my Christian life. YOU could be wrong but because of your certainty and ‘perfection’ you can’t see that could be the case. You are just plain mean-spirited. i AM A CHRISTIAN and I AM QUEER, so there! Don’t like that, then too bad. It’s really not up to you. For the sake of Christ, learn to be more loving towards those you disagree with, especially if you want them to know ‘your’ G-D. i will not stop calling myself a Christian. You are NOT my judge and jury, Than G-D!
Adele,
For the record, I don’t claim to be perfect. I simply believe if the Bible calls something a sin, then well…it must be sin. You on the other hand would rather IGNORE what the Bible explicitly states and go with what feels good to YOU. It’s really sad when someone builds their entire theology on feelings/emotions rather than the Word of God. Wake up Adele…Satan has you right where he wants you: DECEIVED.
Adele,
It seems like you’re clinging to the stereotypical view of how Christians respond to homosexuality, rather than purposing your interpretation of scripture and having a proactive discussion. In terms of debating you’re is generating a “emotional” response based off of experience to sway understanding. This is actually considered crooked thinking. Furthermore, you’re REacting rather than REsponding.
I would love to engage in a discussion on the scriptural merit of your interpretation and listen to your criticisms of the traditional interpretation.
I’m curious do you base your scriptural interpretations off of William Webb’s, “Slaves, Women & Homosexuals” or the Redemptive Hermeneutic as it’s been called?
Matthew,
WHAT is there to debate? According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. I’m sure Adele has seen Paul’s remarks in Romans 1:26, 27 but simply chosen to dismiss it as “just the way the culture was back then.”
It seems most homosexuals I have spoken with tend to think that we as mankind have progressed so much in the past 2000 years that being gay is alright with God now.
Unless Adele and her cohorts admit that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, any dialogue will be a waste of your time.
Erik,
I don’t disagree with you at all. However, I would rather debate the issue here in hopes to point out the huge holes in such faulty interpretations. Thereby, directing Adele to Christ rather than her simply rejecting us and carrying on.
Also, because I have researched the topic and am confident in the truth, I have no reason not to talk about it. However, I cannot share my convictions of scripture without giving Adele the same privilege. In doing so does no harm, it allows us to examine scripture and point out any misconceptions and correct any false pretenses.
I believe that those of us who see the truth in scripture have the responsibility to our show our mislead brothers and sisters the truth of the matter.
It maybe a waste of time, but I know it is a far better option than having her dismiss it and carry on.
Well, it’s one thing to struggle with same sex attractions like another struggles with lust towards the opposite sex – both are called to live in biblical purity and righteousness.
It’s another thing entirely to expect the Church to fully endorse same sex activity – because it is just not endorsed in Scripture -that would be like expecting the Church to endorse greedy behavior, lying, stealing, cheating, and the like.
Of course we are to love one another but that does not mean we let each other live contratry to the Bible or to live however one wants – instead we are to love one another toward love and good deeds, in Christ – to love one anther toward wholeness and healing, in Christ.
The “that’s just your interpretation” rebuttal is almost as weak as ad hominem argumentation. Very, very little of the Bible requires interpretation. It’s no different than if you were to write a letter, an article, a book, etc. In general, you don’t want anyone interpreting your words – unless you’re intentionally being cryptic. If we accept that it was God’s intention to reveal His character, will and plan and that we can find that revelation in the Scriptures, then unless we’re wanting to go the Gnostic / mystical route (which is completely subjective) then we must also accept that the Bible contains objective truth, revealed in an objective way. It is exactly this way of understanding the Bible with regard to the Gospel that provides the basis for someone to consider themselves a Christian in the first place. If someone is going to accept the passages about trusting Christ as savior, then if there is to be any consistency one must also accept the passages discussing homosexuality in a similarly objective way. It doesn’t help either side to make it an emotionally-charged issue and it doesn’t help to accuse those who simply ask for some consistency in handling the Scriptures as being hateful and arrogant.
Your Name
September 12, 2009 12:42 AM
Ok..please, please, please…understand that I’m am not trying to bait anyone but a want honest feedback. WARNING: please leave emotions at the door. I just want cut and dried theological discussion. I am a christian who loves Jesus and is homosexual. Years ago I was part of a 2 year live-in program – part of the ex-gay movement. To this day I love the people who started because I think they truly believed and still do believe this is what God has for them to do. With that being said..it worked of none of us. Out of 30 guys 6 years out of the program, 6 took their lives, 8 died of AIDS and the rest of us are still wandering around in the desert
At one point during the program we started to argue about the fact that there were plenty of very pointed scriptures having to do with God’s disapproval of homosexual sex. And Paul’s admonition that they were part of the group that would not inherit the kingdom of God. To my knowledge however there is not one SPECIFIC scripture damning suicide in the same way homosexuality is. Yes the general gist is that God does not want us to do ourselves in. BUT…given the choice between the definite chance of being ‘lost’ with homosexual option A and a better chance of making it to the kingdom through option B suicide (As horrific as that statement is)…at times the leaders would in roundabout ways suggest they’d rather we take the chance with choice B then live a homosexual life that would quite possibly put us in the worst place to spent eternity. In a sick sense, suicide was an option.Please understand…this is a horrible issue and I hate discussing it, but when pushed against the wall 2 friends chose to end their lives because they found it impossible to live single celibate lives. Perhaps suicide is a safety valve of sorts. I know, I know, I sound crazy,…AND I AM NOT SUICIDAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!but I just want some purely NON_EMOTIONAL feedback on a theological level only. thanks. I must close by sayin that i think God is ok with suide but not with Homosexual sex.
Brian,
I hope that my response will be objective, biblical, clear and compassionate.
I believe your struggles are real and your faith in Christ is real – although I can only base that upon what you say – but I am not judging you in any way.
Let me make a few initial observations from over 20 years in the ministry in preaching, teaching and extensive counseling. I have come to the conclusion that God has created us as neither hetereosexual or homosexual per se. God has created us as sexual beings. Almost everything we know about sex is learned behavior. Sex in and of itself brings psychological and physical joy due to the bio-chemical reactions that take place when we respond to various stimuli. Usually there are cultural or situational factors that lead to some of our first sexual experiences shaping the way we first experience these sexual feelings. Because of a huge range of psychological factors – it can be easier for us to move in one direction or another. I do think there are some who are tempted to sin in one area greater than in others. If someone is tempted to steal – and they successfully steal the first time – then they are more likely to steal the first time. The first time we sin at anything is always the hardest because our personal barriers are higher.
Once someone has succumbed to temptation an fallen into a particular sin – then there is always a path for resolving this. It can be complicated and painful. This is true if we’re talking about self-attraction for masturbation, attraction to children, attraction to many women – all of these are sinful that carry great stigmatism – but which can be overcome.
We are not condemned for the temptations we encounter, but only for our responses to them.
The temptation is to act in a way that is not pleasing to the Lord. The are always was to avoid giving into the temptation.
Concerning sexuality – it is primarily about having needs met and meeting the needs of others. If our desires and fantasies are in ways that are unbiblical – then we need to suppress those and look for alternatives that are not sinful. We keep working on this, just as we would any other bad habit – and that is what homosexuality is – a bad habit. Functionally you can perform sex with a woman and the physical needs will be meet. The emotional needs will follow. We will always be attracted to people who meet our physical needs.
Suicide is a temptation – but not a good option. There are ways through this – and that is not just some platitude – it is real – and God’s word is full guidance. The key is to be open and humble. I would be glad to discuss this further.
Dave James
The Alliance for Biblical Integrity
Tony Jones is a known adulterer so who cares what he has to say about God’s laws.